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Served, Yes, But Well-Served?

October 8, 2009

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The list published by the Student Lending Analytics blog last month jumped off the computer screen: Of the 10 colleges and universities whose students received the most Pell Grant funds in 2008-9, 7 were for-profit institutions. The massive University of Phoenix led the way with 230,000 students receiving Pell Grants worth a total of $560 million, way above No. 2, Kaplan University. The only public institution on the list was the 19-campus Pennsylvania State University, and two of the 10 (one for-profit, one private nonprofit) were in Puerto Rico.

There are plenty of caveats about the list and why it doesn't fully represent the true Pell Grant picture. Foremost among them, by far, is the fact that the Education Department database from which the numbers were drawn lists individual institutions.

So huge community college districts (like Phoenix's Maricopa Community Colleges) or public college systems (like the City University of New York) that serve huge numbers of poor students don't show up as single entities, while for-profit colleges like Phoenix and DeVry -- which are structured in a way that makes them equivalent to university "systems" -- do. (If the Maricopa colleges were lumped together, they'd show up in the middle of the top 10, as currently constructed, with about $60 million. CUNY and California State University would appear well above that.)

That limitation aside, the data on Pell Grants say something important about the state of American postsecondary education at a time when the Obama administration, joining many others, is pushing to increase the number of Americans -- particularly those from low-income backgrounds -- who enroll in college and leave with a credential.

The one clear thing that the numbers say is that -- in a way that wouldn't have been true 20 years ago, or even a decade ago -- for-profit colleges have become a dominant destination for students from low-income families. Nearly a quarter of all Pell Grant dollars now flow to students at proprietary institutions.

That fact is inarguable -- but that may be the only statement about the Pell Grant numbers that won't start a fight. How one sees the implications of that trend line, and whether the enrollment of low-income students in for-profit colleges is a positive or negative development, is very likely to hinge on one's perspective. A financial aid Rorschach test, of sorts.

For administrators at for-profit colleges and many supporters of the institutions, the numbers are proof that the sector is coming of age, and that the colleges are reaching out to a pool of students -- academically underprepared students from low-income families -- that many other colleges have long ignored. These students may have limited options for pursuing a higher education, these observers say, but they are voting with their feet to attend institutions that know how to educate them and are going to give them the support they need to reach their goal -- and a better chance than the other institutions that would open their doors to them.

That's essential, they argue, at a time when there is widespread agreement -- and significant political momentum -- behind the idea that many more Americans need to enter higher education and emerge with a meaningful credential.

"What you see here is that the population that we’re focused on, low-income and working class students, are increasingly embracing alternative forms of delivery" and, with their federal financial aid dollars in hand, "are coming to institutions like ours in increasing numbers," says Peter P. Smith, a former Congressman and public college president who is now senior vice president of academic strategies and development for Kaplan Higher Education. "There is an appetite for postsecondary, lifelong, certificate and degree-oriented learning, and learners are taking this money and going where they want to go to get it."

To some higher education and financial aid experts, however, the burgeoning number of Pell Grant recipients at for-profit colleges suggests several realities: that for-profit colleges are more aggressive than most other institutions both in recruiting students (through marketing) and in ensuring that students they recruit apply for federal aid; that other types of colleges that might historically have enrolled those students -- notably public two-year and some four-year colleges -- are finding their enrollments constrained by state budgets; and that for-profit colleges are heavily dependent on federal financial aid (about 80 percent of all students enrolled at for-profit institutions in 2007 received Pell Grants, according to federal data).

More importantly, they argue, is what the Pell Grant numbers alone don't reveal: whether the educational opportunity that they promise is actually delivered, and if it comes at too high a price. To flesh out that answer, they say, one must look at other data -- about such things as student loan burdens and learning outcomes -- that tell a less positive, if still incomplete, tale. Students at for-profit colleges on average accumulate much heavier debt than do those at other types of institutions, and while the available data on graduation rates and other student outcomes are skimpy, for-profit colleges on average tend to have better completion rates than community colleges do, but worse than many four-year public and private colleges.

"To say that low-income students are going to those institutions is a very different thing from saying that low-income students are being well-served by them," says Sandy Baum, an economist at Skidmore College and senior policy analyst at the College Board. “The idea that we’re having low-income students go to these institutions, not graduate, and come out with tons of debt really concerns me, from a public policy perspective.”

A Complex Picture

Any discussion like this one -- about the pros and cons of low-income students attending for-profit vs. other types of colleges -- is complicated by all sorts of factors. A major one is the wide variation within sectors; while some people at traditional institutions of higher education automatically look askance at any for-profit college, there is wide variation in the quality and mission of private sector institutions, just as there is among two-year public and four-year private institutions, for example.

Using a single tag like "for-profit" to describe both the University of Phoenix and a local trucking school makes no more sense, in many ways, than comparing Stanford University and a small Bible college -- yet the former would both be considered "for-profit," and the latter both "four-year private."

Another complication is attitudinal. The for-profit sector has a checkered past, prompting a Congressional crackdown in the late 1980s that shuttered 1,300 schools that were widely seen as defrauding the government of financial aid and scamming students.

The 1,200 career colleges that remain -- highly sophisticated publicly traded companies and neighborhood beauty schools alike -- still regularly face complaints from disgruntled students and consumer advocates who accuse them of failing to deliver on their educational promises. But the enmity they face in some quarters of traditional higher education at times seems out of proportion, as if the cleansing of the late ‘80s had never happened and accrediting agencies and state and federal agencies were doing nothing to regulate the institutions.

It is in that context that the Pell Grant numbers calculated by Student Lending Analytics land with such impact. They show students at for-profit institutions accounting for nearly a quarter of all Pell Grant funds disbursed by the federal government in 2008-9, up, according to an analysis by the Pell Institute for the Study of Opportunity in Higher Education, from 19.3 percent in 2005-6 and 13 percent a decade ago.

Thomas G. Mortensen, a senior scholar at the Pell Institute and the cruncher behind those numbers, notes that the vast majority of the growth among Pell recipients attending for-profit colleges in the last 15 years has been among students that many traditional colleges and universities have shunned: working adults, especially from the lower socioeconomic strata. That may be starting to change, though, as the largest area of growth for the University of Phoenix in the last year or so, for instance, has been among students seeking associate degrees through its Axia College division, which is aimed much more at traditional-age students.

While the numbers showing for-profit colleges snaring a steadily increasing share of students with Pell Grants may elate advocates for career colleges and trouble critics, Peter Stokes, executive vice president of Eduventures, a research firm, reads them another way: as an indicator of where we are.

“If these schools represent this much of the financial aid pie, how much longer can we keep pretending they don’t exist?” says Stokes. “Some folks may put their heads in the sand and wish these colleges weren’t here, but where are we going to get with that?” Wouldn’t it be a more productive conversation, he says, to try to understand why this is happening and how to ensure that the students who are choosing this route are coming out better for it on the other side?

As administrators at the colleges tell it, their students are often those who either don’t find a place at other institutions or wouldn’t otherwise consider college. Nearly three quarters of potential undergraduates “either don’t meet admissions requirements or meet them and there’s no room for them,” says Bill Pepicello, president of the University of Phoenix.

As the drumbeat about “education as the way to access a middle class lifestyle” grows louder and louder, says Pepicello, more low-income Americans are considering college, a trend accelerated by the current economic downturn, as jobs become scarcer. Many such students would logically turn to community colleges or other open-access institutions, and indeed many of those institutions are reporting booming enrollments now. But many states are also cutting back on funding for their public institutions, forcing two-year colleges in places like California to turn away students who can’t get the classes they need.

“The irony is that the current economic environment creates radically increased demand for higher education, period, and the supply in public institutions, anyway, is capped in many cases,” says Smith, of Kaplan. Add in the fact that, as Smith asserts, for-profit institutions tend to be flexible in adapting their offerings to those most in demand by students and employers, and that, as Pepicello says, the colleges invest significantly in the services and “more careful attention that less sophisticated students tend to need and for-profits are willing to provide,” and it’s not surprising that the institutions are seeing their shares of Pell Grant recipients rise.

Financial aid experts offer other reasons that might help explain the increase. First, the institutions recruit more aggressively than do their competitors for low-income students. “They advertise -- they’re everywhere,” says Sara Goldrick-Rab, assistant professor of educational policy studies and sociology at the University of Wisconsin at Madison. “Think how in your living room they are.” (This aggressiveness can be a vulnerability, too, as for-profit colleges occasionally run into regulatory trouble over potential violations of federal laws that bar them from paying recruiters based on their success in enrolling students. The University of Phoenix signaled last week that it was poised to settle a major lawsuit over that issue.)

The institutions are also much more aggressive about making sure that the students they enroll apply for and eventually receive federal aid for which they qualify -- an area that community colleges would be wise to emulate, for the good of their students, says James Rosenbaum, professor of sociology, education and social policy at Northwestern University. “You walk into the admissions office, and when you’re done, they take you by the hand, almost literally, to the financial aid office, where they say, ‘Here’s how we’re going to help you pay for this,’ " he says. “They spend time with these students, and they get enormous payoff for that time spent. Community colleges don’t.”

”This is a positive thing they do,” says Donald E. Heller, director of Penn State's Center for the Study of Higher Education. “It’s a model that the rest of us can learn from.”

The Loan Burden

The financial aid counseling that for-profit colleges provide to students not only helps them qualify for significant Pell Grant aid -- it also gets them access to the often hefty loans that they need to afford the tuitions that the institutions charge, which are significantly higher than those at public colleges, especially two-year ones. And that is what most troubles Baum, the College Board economist.

A policy brief published by the board in August shows that 96 percent of the students who earned bachelor’s degrees and 98 percent of associate degree recipients from for-profit colleges in 2007-8 had education loans (more than 60 percent had private, non-federal loans), and 19 percent of the associate recipients who borrowed and 60 percent of the bachelor’s holders had accumulated debt of at least $30,000. The comparable figures for public two-year colleges: 38 percent had any loan debt (5 percent of whom had debt of $30,000 or more); for public four-year colleges, 62 percent had loan debt, and 20 percent of them owed at least $30,000.

“The percentage of students who graduate with large debt is higher than for other institutions, and the growth from 2003 to 2007 was huge,” says Baum. “I do think students should be discouraged from borrowing that much money to go to school.”

Baum acknowledges that the questions about debt levels cannot be easily separated from questions about outcomes. Though it’s tricky business, students and families of greater means regularly choose among colleges of differing costs (a more expensive Ivy League or liberal arts college vs. the local state flagship university, for instance) based in part on their expected return on their investment.

But the decision is especially fraught for students from low-income backgrounds, she says. “If you are yourself personally at poor risk of graduating, and you’re going to an institution with low graduation rates, at least make sure you’re not going to leave that institution with huge debt.”

In Baum’s calculation, that would appear to suggest that low-income students would generally be better off at less expensive community colleges. But she acknowledges, too, that many community colleges and non-selective four-year public colleges have very low graduation rates – a fact that officials at for-profit colleges are often quick to point out. How, though, do the academic outcomes of students at for-profit and other institutions compare?

Unfortunately, data on that question are hard to come by. Rosenbaum, the Northwestern scholar, co-wrote an article last winter that found that low income students’ chances of earning an associate degree were “dramatically improved” by going to private two-year colleges (a category that included private nonprofit institutions, but was dominated by for-profits) rather than community colleges. The study did not consider the quality of the content on which the degrees were based, Rosenbaum acknowledges, and it did not fully explain the better outcomes at private institutions, though it suggested that some of the “more innovative” procedures they used to help students stay on track “could be imitated” by community colleges.

Any meaningful comparison of the graduation or other completion rates of for-profit and other institutions, to be fair, would probably have to focus on students from low-income families -- who often come into college with significant academic deficiencies.

Goldrick-Rab, who blogged about Rosenbaum’s study, said the other factor she would throw into the mix of considerations is students’ return on investment from going to various types of institutions. It would be easier to justify the significantly larger debt burden that students at for-profit institutions accumulate if the economic returns over the course of a worker’s career were significantly higher, she says. But the best available data, she says, offer evidence that “the economic returns are the same” for students who attend community colleges and more-expensive for-profit institutions.

Most of those interviewed for this article acknowledge that too little evidence is available to fully answer the most vexing questions raised by the Pell Grant numbers. While they start from different points – Pepicello and Smith confident that their institutions are a good investment for students (and, to the extent federal aid is flowing into them, for taxpayers), Baum and Goldrick-Rab skeptical – there is widespread agreement that for-profit colleges will continue to make the case for their own quality. The University of Phoenix is about to publish its second annual report on its student outcomes, and other institutions, including Capella and Kaplan, have either begun or are preparing to follow suit.

For Smith, given his experiences as founding president of both the Community College of Vermont in the 1970s and California State University at Monterey Bay in the 1990s, the position Kaplan faces now feels familiar.

“In each case, I had to make the argument that what we were doing was sufficiently good, sufficiently qualitative, that it would change people’s lives,” he says. “Look at the battles that community colleges won; they used to have to fight, now they’ve come of age. I think there is a process of acceptance that you go through, and that’s what [for-profit colleges] are going through now.”

Stokes, of Eduventures, argues that it will be impossible for the country to meet President Obama’s goal of 60 percent of Americans with postsecondary credentials unless all institutions, for-profit and non, play a meaningful role. Given their history and their approach, for-profit institutions are, appropriately, “going to be held to a higher standard,” and subject to special regulation, he says. But the institutions have long been “rapping at the door, saying take us seriously,” and the Pell Grant numbers say, at the very least, that increasing numbers of students are.

“They are here, they are serving someone, so they must be doing something right,” Stokes says. “The way I look at it is, are there ways we can improve upon what’s being done at those institutions, and are there ways that the public and private nonprofit institutions can learn from the for-profits to increase their scale, to help us meet some of these more ambitious goals?

“It just seems like we might be able to combine the best of both worlds.”

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Comments on Served, Yes, But Well-Served?

  • Shhhhhhhhhh
  • Posted by JDL on October 8, 2009 at 7:45am EDT
  • The For-Profit sector prefers the term "market-funded education."

  • Public versus Private
  • Posted by sean , Professor on October 8, 2009 at 8:30am EDT
  • honestly, with the cuts we're seeing here in Michigan, i think the line between a public institution and a private institution is not as clear as it has been historically.

  • oh please
  • Posted by Trace Urdan , Equity Research Analyst at Signal Hill on October 8, 2009 at 8:30am EDT
  • Yes for-profit schools serve more Pell students because they market to them aggressively AND are aggressive advocates in ensuring those that qualify apply and receive the funds to which they are entitled. (An interesting study would be to see how many Pell qualified students fail to apply for and receive grants and state and non-profit colleges.)

    University of Phoenix is the largest university in the country (and the world) so again no real surprise there. And the Department of Education now maintains an ongoing 12-month audit of the school for that very reason.

    The institutions primarily serving Pell students though are the nationally-accredited vocational and technical focused schools. (UOP is regionally-accredited.) These schools are obliged to maintain minimum completion rates and job placement rates by their accreditors or risk eligibility in the program. I daresay there is no state-funded or not-for-profit school that subjects itself to such scrutiny. And of course the completion rates are higher at for-profit schools. Before anyone engages in calls for more accountability for for-profit schools, let's get the state-funded sector up to that level of measurement.

    The principal difference in my 12 years of touring these schools as well as community colleges, is that for-profit schools are smaller, homier places where all the instructors and administrators know all the students. The students -- not typically those that have had a positive experience in school -- feel comfortable and mentored. This is why they make the choice to pay more for a for-profit school. That comfort, and the greater confidence they have in achieving gainful employment is why they accept the higher debt levels and in many, many cases transfer credits away from state-funded schools. (Another study topic!)

    The contrast with community colleges could not be more stark. The skills required to succeed in community colleges are the same ones that these students didnt have muddling through their typically giant high schools. Beyond that, state-funded schools have a faculty-centric governance model and despite their mission, are not organized to focus on student persistence and definitely not on student placement. (There's another study -- what is the ratio of job placement officers to students at state-funded and not-for-profit schools?) I think the people who work in the community college system are often well-meaning and civic-minded folk. But the incentives and the trappings of traditional academia actually get in the way of placing students first. In this way the profit-motive focuses the institution on the customer.

    As for the term "market-funded?" Yes it's a fair term. Because if you look at the the number of employed graduates per state and federal tax dollar, substract net Stafford loan losses and add back corporate taxes -- the Title IV dollars funded through the market-funded schools represent the most effective public policy our government has stumbled upon in higher education.

    I would like to personally invite the editors of "Inside Higher Ed" to spend a day -- in the market of your choosing -- touring a collection of market-funded and state-funded schools -- I will set it all up for you -- and you will see the differences starkly and perhaps think twice about dishing out this type of red meat in the future. (Though I have no doubt this will "sell clicks" today!) And, as you know, I make that offer with the utmost respect for your integrity and skill as journalists.

  • The K-T gap?
  • Posted by David Eubanks , Dir. Applied Ambiguities on October 8, 2009 at 8:45am EDT
  • Backtrack: http://highered.blogspot.com/2009/09/survival-strategies.html

    "Edusaurus rex has grown thick-limbed on the richly oxygenated air of heavy government subsidies and cannot survive the change in economic conditions, which now favor the fleet-footed Cyberdon meme, which potentially can deliver the same product much more cheaply and conveniently."

  • Posted by John Doe on October 8, 2009 at 9:30am EDT
  • Many students got stuck in market-funded 'colleges' because they had made them believe that would be an easier path. Simply Google the rip off report will reveal that secret, such as this one: http://www.ripoffreport.com/Colleges-and-Universities/University-Of-Phoeni/university-of-phoenix-online-t-94sb2.htm. Is there *any* non-profit institution who receives as many complaint on fraud and misrepresentation as *any* market-funded one?

    On the other hand, if you choose to bring your money to such a school, even when overwhelming information is readily available, that's probably why you need a public assistance to go to college in the first place.

  • Posted by Steve Foerster on October 8, 2009 at 9:30am EDT
  • The University of Phoenix may be the tallest tree in the forest of for-profit higher education, but it is not the largest university in the U.S., both the Community College of the Air Force and CUNY have higher enrollment. And it is far from being the world's largest, India's Indira Gandhi National Open University is nearly ten times its size.

  • Posted by Trace Urdan , Equity Research Analyst at Signal Hill on October 8, 2009 at 10:45am EDT
  • I stand corrected on IGNOU enrollment, which apparently numbers north of 2 million. But as for CUNY and CCAF I'm pretty sure that UOP's 420,700 (likely north of 440K this fall) has both of those institutions beat for size. Not that it matters of course ;-)

  • Qualitative comparisons
  • Posted by Alan Contreras , Office of Degree Authorization at State of Oregon on October 8, 2009 at 11:00am EDT
  • I work all the time with a mix of for-profit and nonprofit colleges. I am concerned that too much emphasis is placed on completion rates and not enough on what happens after completion.

    In some fields, genuine comparison of program quality is possible because the programs lead to professional licensure. Public, private non-profit and private for-profit colleges all offer programs in such fields as teaching, nursing, EMT/paramedic, various other medical fields, some public safety fields etc. for which licensure rates are available. How do they compare? Some other relatively easy qualitative comparisons are in fields that don't require licensure but do have professional norms and formal qualifications, e.g., certain computer technical certifications.

    Completion of a college degree is not the end of what should interest society as a policy matter, it is the beginning.

  • Served-but well served?
  • Posted by rosanne soifer on October 8, 2009 at 11:45am EDT
  • I have taught at a for-profit and now at a private 4 year college as an adjunct. Both institutions basically served the same demographic of non-traditional, minority students. The for-profit had at one time lost ( for perhaps a year) it's ability to make loans and get Pell grants for the students because of a default rate of about 25%. In other words, the for-profit admitted students who were underprepared both academically and financially. NO ONE benefits from this practice...and this very interesting article now begs the  underlying question:" Is college for everybody?" Based on my experience, I would say no...since it often  seems to lead to high rates of loan defaults and/or dropping out before completion. And IF the student finishes, considerable debt with a not-necessarily decent paying job.

  • For Profit
  • Posted by Jeff Olson , VP of Brokerage on October 8, 2009 at 12:45pm EDT
  • Those administrators from public education that admitted in the article that they could learn some things from private, for-profit insitutions are on to something. I went to a public university and wouldn't trade that education for anything. I have worked, however, in the private for-profit and private non-profit sectors and see the advantages for many members of society.

    First, the programs are marketed as a way to a job, addressing exactly why so many young people drop out of public school - how is education relevant? Next, the school executes a contract with a beginning and ending date (a goal, if you will) and my experience indicates that those that start and finish per the contract, nearly always succeed at attaining the goal of meaningful employment. Lastly, financial aid, counseling, childcare (in my schools case), transportation, etc. are all addressed and students are assisted with these important matters. This "hand holding" helps them to cope and to persist toward the goal of graduation and employment. With that employment, they can gain self confidence, show their children the power of education, and be responsible for their own lives.

    In the end, there is room for all types of education and the government and all educators should be working together to see that all students, regardless of socio-economic status, are served appropriately. Educators, especially those in the public sector, need to quit hiding behind accrediting bodies, and flawed data and reach out to the for-profit sector to learn from them, to help them with best practices, and to pursue the graduates of a career college as potential students in their own schools. The for-profit school reinvigorated the student's interst in education and the public sector should build on that and reward that graduate.

  • hard sells
  • Posted by Jane Sjogren at JSJ2 Consulting on October 8, 2009 at 1:00pm EDT
  • For profit degree granting institutions put big effort and big $ into

    -getting students in the door; and

    -getting students into the federal and private lending systems.

    Why? Because campus administrators, admissions officers, and financial aid supervisors get bonuses based on enrollment figures.

  • Serve Students Better
  • Posted by Just an Adjunct , Philosophy at Liberal Northeast on October 8, 2009 at 5:00pm EDT
  • It makes perfect sense that low-income students with fewer financial resources would have greater student loan debt upon graduating from college. It's noteworthy because for-profit's like DeVry and the University of Phoenix are the custodians of these funds and see more Pell than any oher college or university.

    To many of us here's the equation:
    For profit = scandal, intrigue or agressive tactics.

    I disagree. Let's fess-up. Giant for-profits like the University of Phoenix simply serve students better. They provide students with a skill-set and create an appetitie for continuous self improvement. Although I cannot refer to a study, my guess is their graduates are better prepared for employment and better able to pay-down these loans than traditional college graduates.

  • Reply to Trace Urdan
  • Posted by CC Prof on October 8, 2009 at 8:15pm EDT
  • In an above post Trace Urdan wrote: "The contrast with community colleges could not be more stark. The skills required to succeed in community colleges are the same ones that these students didnt have muddling through their typically giant high schools. Beyond that, state-funded schools have a faculty-centric governance model and despite their mission, are not organized to focus on student persistence and definitely not on student placement. (There's another study -- what is the ratio of job placement officers to students at state-funded and not-for-profit schools?) I think the people who work in the community college system are often well-meaning and civic-minded folk. But the incentives and the trappings of traditional academia actually get in the way of placing students first. In this way the profit-motive focuses the institution on the customer."

    The idea that only bad high school students go to community college is ridiculous. Something like around 10% of the Ph.D.'s granted to U.S. born Ph.D. recipients are awarded each year to people who went to community college. I am one of them. I also teach at a community college. I put my students first. What else do I have to put first. I'm sending students on to the best public college in the state on a regular basis, and some are going to prestigious private colleges. The generalizations in this comment seem highly suspect at best.

  • Cooling out the Mark
  • Posted by David Cooper , Professor/English at Jefferson Community and Technical College on October 8, 2009 at 10:45pm EDT
  • For-profit "colleges" enable low-income students to accumulate huge debt and promise them easy education. There are no short cuts to a college education; however, these capitalists prey on people who know little, if anything, about higher education. One for profit charges tuition comparable to ivy league schools. I asked a student: "Why would you pay $40,000 a year to go to a non-descript for profit school when you could almost go to Harvard for that amount?" The student didn't understand the question and said that she wanted to hurry up and graduate and may "big bucks." What these schools do is "cool out the mark." It is a con game. The student comes away with thousands of dollars of debt and no education. Even better, credits from these schools do not transfer to real state or private colleges and universities. The Feds should crack down on these sham colleges by not granting student loans for them.

  • Con Game?
  • Posted by Professor Anthony , English at Large Public on October 9, 2009 at 10:30am EDT
  • It's interesting to note the above comments.

    From what I have read, most for profits appeal to an older more sophisticated student who went to work rather than college after High School. Thess students are not magically hypnotized against their wills to enroll in any degree program. In fact, they are savvy consumers. To demonize enrollment staff at for-profits as arm twisters filled with false promises, is not factual.

    What's even more interesting is: those who articulate objective standards for all and consider for-profits a sucessful model that public college's and university's can learn from, are considered "highly suspect".

    If we are truly looking out for our students, why is this a problem?

  • Fair Comparisons
  • Posted by Just an Adjunct , Philosophy at Liberal Northeast on October 9, 2009 at 11:30am EDT
  • Asking a Community College student why they would spend money attending a for-profit when they could spend the same money attending Harvard, seems almost cruel to me.

    Money may not be the only roadblock to attending Harvard professor?

    I'm no Harvard professor (and I don't play one on T.V) but from the little I do know; many students who attend for-profits are looking for convenience, flexibility and speed. How many working adult or community college students can pack up their bags and return to school full time? They have jobs and children. They are looking for marketable job-skills not an Ivy League education. A commendable endeavor.

  • rebuttal
  • Posted by Trace Urdan on October 9, 2009 at 11:30am EDT
  • to ccprof: I did not mean to imply that every Pell recipient is a poorly prepared or unsuccessful student. I apologize for that broad generalization. One of the best aspects of this article, I thought was in noting the wide range of for-profit schools. My point was that the bulk of the Pell students in for-profit schools are clustered in vo-tech programs -- such as those offering 10-month programs in allied health or skilled trades. This is not speculation or bias, this is something I know to be true. While these students may have a number of strong qualities, generally speaking, they are not academically-inclined, which is part of the reason they are gravitating to vocational programs. My point was simply that for a student like this -- attending a large community college can be intimidating. Its the difference between a campus with 2,500 students versus a campus with 250 students. I know this because I've met these students and spoken with them about this exact issue. My point is that this represents a differentiated and legitimate product in the marketplace that students freely choose.

    to David Cooper and Professor Anthony: I would note that the amount of dollars devoted to student education are equivalent between traditional schools and for-profit schools. In many cases, the adjuncts, textbooks, and accreditation are exactly the same. If there is a difference in the quality of instruction it has nothing to do with the for-profit status -- certainly I see no outrage here for second- and third-tier not-for-profit schools that extract large sums of money from students. My brother's degree from the University of the Pacific cost more than my degree from Yale and no one is accusing that institution of running a con.

    The profit comes from all the spending that for-profit schools dont engage in. They teach only the popular and profitable classes and don't subsidize the socially important and valuable classes but unprofitable classes that are not pre-professional. They skim the cream, but that is not to say that the classes they teach are less legitimate than comparable classes are differently structured schools.

    The student paying $40K is most likely a) there because the admissions standards are open access and Harvard is not an option to him or her; b) transferring in with credits that other schools wouldn't take, making the actual price lower than $40K; c) working and so requiring a flexible schedule that traditional schools cannot accomodate. Price points have to stand on their own in the market and there are plenty of failed for-profit schools that charged too much and failed to provide adequate value. But to suggest that a for-profit school is not justified in charging the same price for a similarly accredited degree program as a not-for-profit school is illogical and simply reveals uninformed bias.

  • Savvy Consumers?
  • Posted by Lucinda S on October 9, 2009 at 12:00pm EDT
  • First, education is not for consumption.

    Second, do many of the students even know what a university is, public or private? Do they even know that a for-profit school is a for-profit school? No knock on their intelligence. Many are survivors of class and economic challenges that would give most academics a breakdown. It is the shame of our class-bound culture that many citizens in a putative democracy, sorry, "representative" republic, don't really know how higher education works. I've known students who complained that the "Admissions" (trans. "sales department") didn't tell them that a degree entails general education courses. In other words, being given to believed they could by-pass all that is one way they were lured away from traditional campuses. Dress it anyway we wish, there's something predatory happening here. Not just in the for-profit sector, to be sure. Contraditions abound everywhere. The for-profits, especially, are not exempt. .

  • Who's Pell Grant Is This?
  • Posted by Mark on October 9, 2009 at 12:30pm EDT
  • Often the argument seems to be whether we should really be giving all these Pell Grants to proprietary schools. Whose Pell Grants are these? It seems to change depending upon the current topic. No one would argue that the Pell grant is an entitlement for students at State run Universities but when it comes to UoP, well gosh, that's OUR Federal tax dollars.
    People argue that UoP uses deceptive practices to enroll students and that's why they have so much Pell money. Actually, if you look at the demographics of the school you might notice that they serve a segment of the population that competitive State Universities want nothing to do with. So people then argue that's what community colleges are for. Hey people, it takes on average more than two years to get an associate’s degree at a community college and frankly the community college’s really don’t care if students who up or not. I went to one, I know. Why would students opt for community college over a school that can get me a job in less time?
    Furthermore, State Universities have had more than a hundred years to corner the market on higher education degrees by limiting enrollment to those who can "handle" the workload or who meet their entrance requirements. Instead they've created stratification between those who have and those who have not. There will always be the Yales, Harvards and Stanfords with their special after graduation job offers. What you see right now is push back by those individuals who either cannot afford to go to these institutions or simply cannot meet their restrictive entrance requirements because of skewed SAT tests known to favor upper middle class white people and their upbringing.
    You don’t like proprietary schools? Then find a way to make Universities more competitive and open up the enrollment to people who want to learn and not just to the few privileged individuals born with a gift, whose parents are alumni of the college or those who live in safe environments that lend themselves to academia. I realize there are those of you who have probably overcome all of these issues and still succeeded in getting into one of these schools. Good for you. I’m referring to the majority and not the minority.
    -Product of the Public Education System

  • It's about enrollment not completions
  • Posted by kkinser at University at Albany, SUNY on October 9, 2009 at 12:30pm EDT
  • The for-profit academic model should not be confused with the for-profit business model. Academically, some FPs do very interesting things, and completion rates may be important indicators of success to their academic model. But very little of their academic model has anything to do with them being for-profit institutions -- look at any truly adult serving institution, and you'll see similar activities. The FP business model, on the other hand, is about enrollment, not completions. They make their money by getting students in the door, not by graduating them. They make their money by getting people to pay their tuition. Completions are essentially irrelevant. Check out any FP SEC filing and you'll see the focus on enrollment, and almost nothing on completions. Not a surprise, and not an indictment. Just a statement of fact.

  • It's Not About Enrollment, It's about Quality and Service
  • Posted by Just an Adjunct , Philosophy at Northeast Liberal Arts on October 9, 2009 at 2:30pm EDT
  • ....with all due respect, would any business (as in for-profit) be around very long if it wasn't providing quality or minimally some utility to consumers?

    Let's think about this..

    Would the University of Phoenix be the largest private university in the world if it's only purpose was to enroll students NOT to complete a degree programs? or...are they just about tricking all those doe-eyed neophytes? (Call it evil magic... right?)

    This is the piece many of us don't understand. However, you really don't need to be a business major to figure this one out. Profitability is one acceptable measure of success and whether we like it or not UOP is ..all that!

  • Is U of P, then, the McDonalds of Higher Ed?
  • Posted by JDL on October 10, 2009 at 2:30pm EDT
  • We also know that "Billions [can be]served" by McDonalds.

  • The NEW, Real Cost of Education
  • Posted by Paul Epstein , CEO at UltraNet Media, LLC on October 21, 2009 at 2:30pm EDT
  • I read and reread this article and it dawned on me that many should realize that the real cost of education, given the Obama Adminstration's $12 billion investment, will run about $240,000 per graduate student from a two-year community college. Recall that the goal of the American Graduation Initiative is to attain a goal of 5 million additional students by 2020. You do the math and see for yourself.

    I think it is time for everyone to stop arguing about what the for-profits (or market-funded - call them what you want), schools aren't doing right. I think they have the right idea about how to get students through to completion. Maybe it is time to take a closer look at their model: the academicians might find something useful under the hood.